Show Notes
Kritee Kanko is a climate scientist, Zen priest, Educator & founding spiritual teacher of Boundless in Motion. She is an ordained teacher in the Rinzai Zen lineage of Cold Mountain, a co-founder of Rocky Mountain Ecodharma Retreat Center and faculty for many organizations for courses at the intersection of ecology and spirituality. She has served as a scientist in the Climate Smart Agriculture program at Environmental Defense Fund.
In the end, she is just trying to be fully present to pain of all beings in the 21st century, and figure out how to act given the resources she has access to. Her experience is that identifying and releasing our personal and ecological grief in presence of a loving community is necessary; that helps us unlock our gifts and serve our communities. She finds herself committed to be in relationship with young adults, permaculture communities, LGBTQ, black, indigenous and other people of color.
She answers the question of “What Could Possibly Go Right?” with thoughts including:
- The sense of belonging that comes from taking time to slow down and share your authentic truth
- The need for healing our collective trauma, to allow us to bond and move forward
- The emergence of ancestral resilience that can bring us together
- The tension between freedom and boundaries in belonging
- The creation of islands of sanity within our communities in this time of climate crisis
Connect with Kritee Kanko
Website: boundlessinmotion.org
Transcript
Vicki Robin: Hi, Vicki Robin here, host of What Could Possibly Go Right?, a project of the Post Carbon Institute. We interview cultural scouts, people who see far and serve the common good – and social artists, people who take the pulse of the times and create; in this time when so much seems to be coming apart, for sure, much is coming together that we can’t see. Our guests help us to see more clearly and act more courageously in this potent time of change.
Today’s guest is Kritee Kanko. She’s a climate scientist, Buddhist Zen teacher and grief ritual leader. She’s co-founder of Boundless in Motion, a meditation community in the Buddhist lineage of Cold Mountain.
She’s also a founding board member of Rocky Mountain Ecodharma Retreat Center, a center that brings meditation in nature, together with Dharma teachings for ecological action; as well as frontline farming and advocacy group that lifts up people of color and women farmers and focuses on food cultivation, education, policy change and justice.
As a senior scientist in the Climate Smart Agriculture Program at Environmental Defense Fund, she is helping to implement environment and climate friendly methods of small farming at large scales in Asia, with a threefold goal of poverty alleviation, food security, and climate adaptation.
She’s the leading teacher of Dharma of Resistance, an online course that builds on teachings of King in nonviolence, social permaculture, and Buddhism to teach participants how to take sacred and radical direction actions to bring in climate justice and racial healing. Now my conversation with Kritee.
Vicki Robin: Welcome to What Could Possibly Go Right? You bring many streams of thinking and being to bear on our predicament, what Post Carbon calls “the great unraveling”. You are an ordained Buddhist teacher. You are a scientist. You were a student of your own and collective suffering. You bring compassion, humanity, clear seeing and a sort of calm impatience with partial measures.
I seem to hear in what you say, if you meditate, but don’t act then or if you act, but don’t feel then, or if you feel but don’t ground then, the systems we’ve sent out of balance are incredibly complex and we at least need to bring complexity of response to this moment.
I feel you threading a sort of Rubik’s cube of response to our tragic moment when more suffering is baked in and no leaders seem equal to the task of leading. So I’m fascinated to hear how you’ll respond to the one question that we ask everybody on this podcast: In the midst of all that seems to be going awry, what could possibly go right?
Kritee Kanko: Thank you so much for having me. It’s a pleasure to meet you and thank you for weaving all these different threads of my own life and mirroring them to me.
As I was thinking about this question… Well, first of all, when you first sent the invite, I wanna tell you how refreshing it was to just receive that question. I don’t usually say yes to podcasts anymore, but I thought, wow, this is a beautiful question to sit with. So thank you for your work, the work you’ve done in your life to come to this point.
This is an important question to ask. So we keep ourselves inspired. Now, how will I respond? Somehow? The phrases which are ringing in my ear today is we will all collectively get blocked, restless, isolated, that we will begin to love and become friends. I feel like one of the fundamental things that I find people seeking when they come to meditation retreats, healing retreats, grief rituals with me is a sense of belonging.
And when we open that portal for people, when you say, here is the way to slow down, feel your own grief and begin to speak it, people are surprised by how light they feel when they speak their pain. It could be anger, it could be fear, it could be grief. When they begin to share their authentic truth, they begin to bond. They begin to love. They begin to belong.
It’s both a hope and a prayer, and I’m leaning into that uncertainty, that this is what could keep going. Because if we keep fueling the sense of belonging, a collective power can emerge; and before power, actually, I would say our ability to sit with more and more discomfort will increase.
One of the things I’m so passionate about is racial justice, healing racial trauma. One of the fundamental shifts that needs to happen in addition to people of color, Indigenous people, Indian people getting to speak their grief, is white folks beginning to see that we have accumulated financial privilege; and that if we are in love and solidarity with people of color, we can return and share that wealth willingly, open-heartedly.
That’s talked about more often than the other side, which is also very important. People of color who do have some sense of belonging still left, and I believe that very deeply, they begin to see how disempowered in general people of European descent are. They don’t have a sense of belonging with their tribes, their lands, their culture, their rituals that were eradicated by the same systems of oppression that accumulate, gave, brought wealth to their hands.
So what am I coming back to? What could go right is that we slow down, we feel our emotions, we have safe enough spaces where we can speak our grief and anger and fear and confusion, sense of not knowing where we can go. Out of that vulnerability of sharing comes a sense of belonging and friendship, which gives us even more courage to step into deeper discomforts, all the way to shame.
When you think about human neurobiology, fighting, freezing, fleeing a situation are fundamental responses to trauma and stresses and what counters it is sense of belonging. Right? If all the crisis of our times are putting us into shame, we are not distracted because we want to be distracted, the shame is compulsively making us distracted.
So, I’m praying, I’m hoping what could go right is that we begin to slow down and belong. And out of that belonging, another layer of things that could go right is that we will form islands of sanity, islands of belonging in a sea of chaos. As a climate scientist, every time I speak about it, I still have my own grief well up. I don’t think we are gonna stop the flood of flooding, flood of droughts; the fires, they are gonna get more intense.
So there will be chaos. There will be literal chaos, there will be psychological chaos, there will be actual rising of sea levels. If we can slow down and begin to belong, we can still form islands of belonging and sanity in this sea of chaos, and we can preserve for future generations, practices, values, frameworks, strategies that we can dream of passing on to future generations, seven generations from now, or 14 generations from now.
There is a whole set of things I could speak about with my scientist mind. Where are the climate solutions? I don’t wanna go there today. The fundamental thing is learning to belong. What could go right is with all of these disappointments, we will be able to pause and belong. And it might have to start with people who have the privilege of slowing down. As you know, there are so many of us who don’t have vacation time, who don’t have freedom to take time to slow down their five jobs, part-time jobs, no health insurance, elders and children to take care of.
Hopefully when we begin to create some islands of sanity around our immediate circles, then that can spiral outward and together we can hear the cries of the planet and other species more deeply.
Vicki Robin: So where do you see, or do you see, even the inklings of islands of sanity? Do you see that emerging right now? Because part of the idea this podcast is what can our guests point to that they see on the horizon that we could, not replicate in some sort of linear way, but sort of inch toward, know that it’s out there. Feel that, oh, there’s something, something coming toward me that I can move toward myself. So do you see this happening?
Kritee Kanko: I definitely see seeds sprouting in many places, and I myself am empowered and healed by seeing those seeds every time. If I begin closer to home, every time we do a retreat, especially for people of color, some of us have really had a lot of trauma in our lives, trauma loads, right? And we begin to create these spaces where people have time and silence, and then there are these practices to speak about your grief. There is an amazing thing that happens where, I’ll give you some examples where I always say people of color have a lot of ancestral resilience as a group. Black, Indigenous, people of color have faced so much trauma and they also have ancestral resilience.
So what begins to happen is that you do these retreats. You peel layers of trauma and their emerges ancestral resilience. and also emerges a deep sense of belonging. All the people of color retreats I have had so far, it has resulted in people, I wouldn’t say everyone, but a lot of people becoming lifelong friends. People standing up for each other when just a week before retreat started, they were complete strangers and, and then people doing projects together.
And this happens even outside of residential retreats. You give people some tools to access their grief and pain when they have named it collectively and they begin to feel less isolated in their grief. It unlocks lot of courage and creativity and belonging. So yes, definitely happening. Definitely happening. I would love to see that happening in 10,000 more places. So there you go, with the seeds.
Vicki Robin: So I’m gonna riff on this a little bit. I mean, you’ve put out a lot of things here that, and I’ll just tell a little story, because I did tell you earlier that I had had cancer and when it was an opportunity. It’s sort of that time, it’s that blessed time of reset, like if you’re gonna reset your life, nobody can argue with you at that point because you have cancer and you could die.
So I just did a total life reset, not out of fear, but joy. I took myself out of a context where I was known and cared for, et cetera, and I threw myself to being a newcomer in a community that had many attractive things about it. Like a little village on this island here. And the need for belonging was so intense for me. Everybody seemed to spend a lifetime raising children together, and so they all had that automatic thing.
How do I do this? How do I knock on the door and belong? And so I’ve been a student of how to belong to a people and a place. I’ve worked on re-localization. I’ve worked on many things associated with this, and I sort of think this is gonna be our situation, that it’s going to boil down to the people in your neighborhood.
If the consequences continue, it’s going to be the people who are around you. Somehow maybe you will get support from people who are far away, but somehow or another, it’s like the task is to learn to belong to one another in the places where we live. And some of the things, you sort of wait around to be included, but you can show up. I just started showing up. I volunteered, like you start out by volunteering. I priced shoes at the thrift store, that was my first volunteer job.
So I think it’s a really interesting question is how do we return to belonging to one. And even though, it’s like Whidbey is so white, it’s a very white community, but we have a lot of other kinds of diversity, religious and cultural, et cetera. I said, it’s the most diverse place that I’ve been, since high school. It’s like a place in the world, for whatever reason, we’ve all been jumbled up. My ancestors came from basically the Jewish communities in Ukraine, and we’ve all been jumbled up, somebody shook it all up, and we’ve landed here.
What do you see, whether you are projecting or if you’ve observed this, what do you see about creating belonging in real life, in real communities? Yeah. Or translating the belonging somebody might feel in a retreat when they slow down and they can return and create belonging, because that’s gonna be so important, is important.
Kritee Kanko: Absolutely. Thank you for taking it there. So there you are. So right, there is a sense of belonging you can create in these curated retreats, but then the real test is in our daily lives. Right. And I’m going, it’s cooking for each other, cleaning for each other, knowing when we are sick and showing up at the hospital like, Just showing up and that showing up requires time.
It requires that we clear up our timetable, right? If my life is so regimented that I have meetings from 7 in the morning, which I sometimes do, till 8-10 at night, right? My work team is in India, and so sometimes I’m waking up 5:30 in the morning just because it’s back to back calls and then late night calls.
You cannot, you do not have time to belong. Then I am belonging to my project and my work team and I get a salary from that. But it is not the kind of belonging we are talking about here. The sense of belonging with the place, the garden, the animals, the birds in your neighborhood and people requires showing up and it requires some skills like cooking, cleaning, sitting with people, sharing stories, potlucks, games. It’s simple things, but people need to laugh together as much as they need to cry together. So, so yes, the retreat like practices where you go on walking meditation, you sing together, dance together, some of them can be easily taken to settings outside.
This is the quality that in general, I see more easily escavatable in people of color, right? It’s just already there. When I go to India, each time I go to India, I see that sense of belonging. Rushing in, right. My, my mother, my aunties, their neighbors, they’re all ready to just close to me. And we get to smell each other. We get to taste pickles from each other’s house.
And the food is going from one house to another, and the spices are going from one house to another. It is very different here. And I come back. There are many layers of changes when I come from India to US, but one of the things where are people? Yes. Even they ask you, how are you, do they really mean it?
Are they gonna stop by if I say my friend just died? So I don’t, I, I think that requires more than slowing down. It requires a deeper trust that if I show up for people, that’s good for our collective body and that trust is gone missing in Western world overall. Right? There are individuals and families and communities still nurturing it and trying to pass it to their, future younger generations.
Vicki Robin: Yeah, I also hear you talking about the, the wealth of belonging in, in communities of color and the poverty of belonging in white communities, that have become so brittle and fragile. Not everybody at all times, no overgeneralization. Sure. But there is a, a brittle, fragile something when you’ve gone too long without that sense, yes, I find it in touch. it’s like that was part of the problem with the pandemic is like, 16 hugs a day just when you went into town. And so we’re having to reignite that and just even touching is, is been turned into, oh, I could get sick.
But, the other thing I would observe is one of my experiences of belonging , like really I’m here was when I had to have a surgery. Soon after I came to this community and somebody set up a meal train and people came morning, noon and night to my house. It was like, wow, and they all thanked me because we had really good conversations.
So, so I see like in my community, some of the online tools, the online environment weaves us. We’ve got this alert thing and then we’ve got the buy nothing, Buy nothing, just, I would recommend to anybody in this who hears this to, if you have a buy nothing group in your community, just join it because the generosity, the thrill of giving is, just binds people together.
Yes. So there’s rituals like that too. Or just CaringBridge, you get sick and in a way it’s sort of a white person thing. You know, we don’t just go directly over to the house with a big potluck or, we just go like, oh, is there a CaringBridge?
Okay, I’ll go in the CaringBridge and I will like, like, like. But still, it’s like becoming weavers. And I think one of the things we can all do is just even recognize that brittleness, that it just begins to soften that thing inside us, that presumes we’re unwelcome.
Kritee Kanko: Yes. Yes. And it brings up all kinds of things, including shame, right? If I show up, what if, and sometimes people are busy? When I was growing up in India, we many times wouldn’t lock our doors. Neighbors would just come by. It was just like you didn’t need appointments. So, and it’ll be hard to do it here, right? If you don’t have a sense of community.
I do wanna bring up something which does afflict people of color in spite of, and again, I’m making generalized statements here, sense of belonging, sense of community, not feeling isolated. That’s beautiful. And what we do suffer from, including men, my South Asian culture is sometimes to maintain that sense of belonging, parts of the community have to suffer the patriarchy, heteropatriarchy, to maintain the sense of belonging.
Women are the one who are always working in the kitchen making five meals a day, to maintain the community. And this happens in communities here as well. I always say, this can feel like a paradox. It might feel like these are two conflicting drives. We wanna belong without suppressing individuality and creativity. Sometimes the uniqueness, the creativity, the courage can be suppressed because you’re asked to belong in an unhealthy way. And, which have traditionally had people of color to wanna break free.
That brings me to the point of need of equanimity, the practices that bring us back to an equanimous ground. Yes. It’s good to have a sense of belonging, compassion, loving kindness for each other. And if we don’t have the ground of equanimity, which is what my Buddhist contemplative tradition has gifted me, a sense of belonging can give you actually too much pain because then you are soaking in pain of the entire community. I myself have had those times where I’m just worrying about everyone trying to rescue everyone and I’ve lost sense of joy, gratitude, and equanimity.
It’s possible to get that right. It’s possible to have practices that bring us back to equanimity. My Zen teacher used to say, it’s possible to be calm and still like the eye of a hurricane. Everything is going crazy, but you have a way to access that still center within yourself.
Vicki Robin: This is, as I said in my little intro, what I’ve got from you is that we live in incredibly complex times with fragility in places that we don’t think there are, like a coastline, for example. So of course everything is complex. Because I did move out of a community that would’ve taken care of me, and I moved out on my own into a brand new place, why did I do that?
Well, I needed some freedom to experience a new me if I was going to emerge from this cancer with some sort of like whatever my soul was trying to move out. I need a little space. So it’s a constant dance. It’s a constant dance of freedom and limits. Constraints and belonging.
It’s like belonging becomes constraint. Unwelcome constraint, unwelcome constraint pushes you out into a birth, into something that’s completely foreign, where you desire to belong. And so it’s almost like the mastery is not set saying that one of the things is freedom and the other one is constraint.
Yeah. It’s a process of living and for me, I know I’m sort of like talking more than I do with my guests. I’m sharing more of myself. But anyway, I think that, that one of the real skills of this is negotiating boundaries, permeable boundaries and having authority over what comes in and what stays out.
Authority without aggression, yes, without having to create space for oneself by rejecting the other, but still being able to create space. I feel like this need to create, this kind of, I am sovereign and I belong. This is a big question I feel on this continent now from the left and the right, and in a way, neither side exactly trusts the institutions that are supposed to keep us safe. So would you reflect on that from your multiple perspectives?
Kritee Kanko: You said many interesting things, but, I think boundaries are absolutely crucial, and then to take it to the spiritual level or neurobiological level. One of the responses when we have trauma, is so there is fight, flight, and freeze. The fourth one, which is not talked about often is fawn, trying too hard to please someone, right? It is also a trauma response.
So one of the things that can happen in a community when we don’t have a healthy sense of ego. We can talk about transcending ego another time, but when we don’t have a healthy sense of ego and healthy sense of boundaries, I belong. But I am also here, right? That I don’t need to become a doormat for my community to walk over me or a relationship to walk all over me. So that is really crucial.
One of the recent short pieces of writing I did, was in Buddhism we talk about this concept of interdependence and interbeing, which means I am here because you are here, or I am you. And you are me. Okay. Sometimes interdependence and compassion are interpreted to mean, and it relates to creating community, is that I be all self-sacrificing and I take care of you at all times, which is good, all spiritual traditions ask us to serve other beings, but interdependence means that I also matter. Interdependence doesn’t mean you, you, you, it means you and me. So I think, we come back to doing trauma healing when there isn’t enough acknowledgement of past traumas it could be family based intergenerational trauma, it could be racial trauma.
Now we have climate trauma and unless there is some constant ongoing acknowledgment and healing of trauma, we will fall into fight, flight, freeze, or fawn which don’t create healthy communities. Either they don’t have communities at all, or you have communities and they are unhealthy because the women are trying to please men, right?
We are not able to say, no, we are not able to take our space. People of color are not able to take space because, Indian people always, while under the British Raj, we don’t have the urgency to rule ourselves. My grandfather was a freedom fighter and he used to say, his peers used to always argue with him and say, we are not ready for independence, we can’t, how can we govern ourselves? This is a trauma response for me, so I went in multiple directions, but I am just wholeheartedly agreeing that boundaries, permeable boundaries are very necessary. And from my point of view, we have to get trauma informed in our communities.
Vicki Robin: Yeah. And so, yeah. Oh man, we could go on forever here.
Because I’m trying to imagine what is the fifth F here? I mean, there’s got to be a healthy F? Flight, flight, freeze, fawn, or…
Kritee Kanko: We can create an F word, but where I was trying to get to belonging, it’s called tend and friend. You’ve seen this in the animal kingdom, non-human animal kingdom as well. Like, women tend to do that when we are under stress. We belong to each other and we tend to our young, right? So, it also has its limit. It’s not enough by itself, but it’s much better than the other four Fs. So let me take that up as a homework. Ok, fine. An F word that means belonging or tending. Tending.
Vicki Robin: Friending. There you go. Okay. You heard it here first, folks.
Fight, flight, freeze, fawn, or friend. There you go. Yeah. I wanna go back around and we probably should, this is gonna be our last topic to this idea of islands of sanity. I’ve heard you speak about it once, and I even shared it with some friends. We have a group here. It’s become an international thing called Healing Circles where it started out just sort of healing from grief and loss, personal grief and loss. but we’re gonna have a circle around this fight, flight and friend; that we’re gonna have a circle around resilience, climate resilience, or resilience in a time of unraveling.
So it’s gonna be a little bit of an island of sanity, I think. And so I think this is a way that people can take up a practice, and they can look up healingcircles.org or something for more practices, but a practice of in community, creating an island of sanity. So talk a little bit about your thought about that.
Kritee Kanko: Yeah, yeah. I will. Two components that I definitely wanna touch upon, from my point of view, if we look at all these layers of challenges that we have. I say that there have to be three main components of an island of sanity. So one we have spoken about already so much is trauma healing, being aware of these layers of trauma, I think of them as layers of an onion, right?
You have the trauma that comes from patriarchy and sexism and climate, race, and ability to find our autonomous ground in the midst of all this. So these are like internal practices, we can do them, and having a community helps just like jogging with others helps. The second component, given the climate crisis is that the community works on, as you were saying, sharing. What was that group you talked about? Buy Nothing Groups? Yeah. We absolutely have to decrease our footprints.
I would feel sad if I didn’t tell you these statistics. An average American is responsible for 30,000 kilos of carbon dioxide emissions every year. That’s like 66,000 pounds every year. In India that’s more like 5,000 pounds, okay average Indian. Where do the, where does the American footprint need to come down to in next five years? American footprint needs to come down from 66 or 65,000 pounds to 5,000 pounds.
How is that going to happen? Unless there is a sense of belonging and community and buy nothing mentality and framework and value where we are constantly sharing our lawn mowers. Gosh, do we even need lawn mowers? That’s a separate conversation. But can we work with fewer cars in a neighborhood? Can we work with fewer TVs in a neighborhood? Whatever it is that we use. That’s number two.
Okay. Inner trauma healing work, grounding work. Second is sharing village life. I call that shared village.
And the third component from my perspective of these islands of sanity is not everyone in a community will have that inclination, but those of us who do we find our support to say our sacred no to the systems of oppression.
It is not enough to just say yes that I’m embracing buy nothing framework and value, but to be able to say no. There are articles in which I have talked about relationship between these three, how they can feed into each other, but when you have to start small, right, first steps.
So if anyone here is thinking, this sounds okay, but where do I start? The research has shown that you need five to seven people to begin a group. If you become, if you are too few, then the momentum can fall, you can lose momentum. If you are too big, you can’t hold the container. Human eyes, humans can observe body language of seven to eight people maximum at a given time.
When the group becomes too big, we all become performative. We tend to not open up at easily, even if you classify yourself as an extrovert. So there is some magic in this size of five to seven, where you can maintain close emotional bonds. And guess what? That’s the size of a family. Like even if you have three generations in a family, that’s the size. But even for friendships, this works. So I tell people, if nothing else, try to find like-minded people and have potlucks with five to seven, eight people. Begin there. Watch some documentaries. Do a book club and go from there.
There is a lot more I have said about this topic elsewhere, but those are two basic things. The three components of islands of sanity, are inner work, trauma healing work, shared life, and resistance. Keeping the size in mind when the group becomes too big, it probably needs to split into three groups of five to seven.
Vicki Robin: Yeah. Perfect. Yeah, I mean, it’s not like we’re giving people at the end of our conversation, their how-to, sending ’em off with the how-to. It’s more like there’s some essential structure of belonging that you’re talking about, where if the belonging has depth, if it’s going to see you through hard times, if it’s gonna be generative, it needs this trauma informed meditation equanimity, the capacity to ground it needs shared resources, like permeable boundaries between mine and thine. And it needs a politics, like no, there are things in the world that are not congruent with love and service. Yes. And we’re just going to be, whether we stand on a street corner or just know it in ourselves.
There’s things that are amiss and I take strength from this group of people to go out into the world with my yeses and my nos. And the intimacy of that family size, that doesn’t overwhelm your biology, your neurobiology, by asking you to love too many people all at once. Yeah.
Kritee Kanko: I wanna say one more thing before we go.
Vicki Robin: No, we can keep going. We can say as much as we want.
Kritee Kanko: Well, the thing is this is gonna take a lot of patience. It’s not easy, you know, when you try to belong. Conflict is inevitable, and conflict at one level is healthy, but it takes a lot out of you. It’s not pain free because we are so traumatized. 60% of people growing up in America have had sexual abuse in their childhood, verbal abuse and alcoholic parents.
You have a lot of trauma in any community you walk into, even if it’s so-called privileged with respect to financial privilege or even with racial privilege. There’s a lot of trauma in a given room. So someone who is doing their equanimity practices and their healing work will actually feel that trying to maintain community is traumatizing them further because other people haven’t done their inner work. So it’s not easy, it’s not rosy, it’s not that sense of community and belonging comes in a linear way.
Vicki Robin: Absolutely. And consider the alternative. Yes. Exactly. So this is the work, this is, this is one big piece of work ahead of us. There was one spiritual teacher that I used to like, who said, if you can learn to keep your heart open in hell, you’re in heaven. So there’s a lot of opportunity for spiritual work in the times ahead. And that doesn’t mean just transcending and self negation, which is what a lot of people see it as, but it means being able to stay present.
It’s challenging, but honestly, we have so many tools out there that people have been learning over the last 50 years, as the social fabric has been unraveling. There’s been teachers who are teaching raveling, like whether it’s non-violent communication or… So many, many teachers have been preparing us with tools.
Kritee Kanko: Absolutely. I saw you brought in Miki Kashtan and some of my friends and colleagues; Joanna Macy. So there is just a lot of tools and we have to begin somewhere, right?
So if there’s anyone in the audience, you have to begin somewhere. I see a lot of people just wanting these tools, but not taking the first step and not finding the first two friends to explore these things with, because these practices do become easier when you do them together.
Vicki Robin: Yeah. Okay. So thank you so much, Kritee, thank you. It’s really was a pleasure to get to know you in front of everybody.
Kritee Kanko: Same here. Vicki. Thank you for your wonderful questions.
